Friday, January 29, 2016

Sukkah as Divine Body of the Moshiach: Latent Incarnational Teachings in Rabbinic Judaism

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God....And the Word was made His sukkah among us, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth," John 1:1,14

The Apostolic Writings record in the Besorah of Yochanan (Gospel of John) that G-d made His sukkah (tent) among mankind by becoming flesh--by being born as a little Jewish baby on the festival of Sukkot in a town called Bet Lechem.

Cue the scoffs from many Orthodox Jews: Our Rabbis tell us that G-d would never dwell with mankind in a sukkah of flesh!

But what do the Rabbis really say?

First, it should be noted that the Rabbis say that the Word of G-d (i.e. the Torah) corresponds to the form of a man:
" 'The end of the matter, when all is said and done:  fear God and guard His commandments, for this is all of a person.'  'The end of the matter' is Adam, who was created last.  And the first in thought is the last in deed.  He was created at the end so that he could include everything in his image and likeness.  He was created with 613--248 limbs and 365 sinews, corresponding to the positive and negative commandments.  'Fear God' refers to the negative commandments 'and guard His commandments' refers to the positive commandments.  Thus it is written, 'for this is all of a person.'  For a person is constructed from limbs and sinews," Isaiah Horowitz, The Generations of Adam, pg. 216
Next, the Rabbis say that the sukkah represents the Divine Glory of HaShem:
" 'Rabbi Eliezer says--they were actual booths; R. Aqiba says--[they were Clouds of Divine Glory]," (Sifra Emor, Ch. 17)
This argument considers two positions:  one claiming that sukkot are meant to replicate and therefore symbolize the booths in which the Israelites dwelled in the desert following the exodus, and the other asserting that the ritual sukkot....symbolize the 'Clouds of Glory'--the Clouds of Divine Glory that protected the Israelites in the desert during the daytime hours (while a pillar of fire did so at night; see Ex. 13:21-2)....
    The tannaitic midrash, the Mekhilta d'Rabbi Ishmael...preserves a different version of the opinion attributed to R. Aqiba above.  Commenting on the biblical report that 'they travelled from Sukkot' (Ex. 13:30, where 'Sukkot' is clearly the name of a place) the midrash says, 'R. Aqiba says:  'Sukkot' is none other than the Clouds of Divine Glory.'  This association is partly suggested by the fact that the very next verse in the torah describes the children of Israel as travelling during the day with protection of the clouds.  But the simple meaning of 'Sukkot' leaves no room for doubt; it is unambiguously a place (the version of the midrash at pisha 14 records such an opinion explicitly).  So what we have here is an early tradition insisting that 'sukkot' should be seen as the Divine Clouds--protectors of redeemed Israel both in the past and, as the midrash goes on to teach, in the future.  This insistence shows the power of this interpretive tradition at the earliest level of rabbinic interpretation.  In fact, after having reviewed the traditions in detail, Rubenstein concludes that this interpretive tradition...is 'the dominant or at least majority opinion' in the rabbinic setting (Rubenstein, 1995, p. 243, n. 15)," David Kraemer, Rabbinic Judaism:  Space and Place
Next, consider that the Rabbis say that the "sukkah" in Amos 9 ("the fallen sukkah of David") refers to the Moshiach:
Nachman said to R. Isaac: “Have you heard when Bar Nafli will come?” “Who is Bar Nafli?” he asked. “Messiah”, he answered. “Do you call the Messiah Bar Nafli?” “Yes”, he responded, as it is written, “on that day I will raise up the fallen Sukkah of David.” (Sanhedrin 96b-97a)
So the sukkah represents both Moshiach and G-d Himself.  But this is not the first time that Moshiach has been identified with G-d in Rabbinic writings.  Observe:
"We conclude this section with a quotation from Genesis Rabbah 2.4.  Commenting on Gen. 1:2, R. Simeon b. Lakish is credited with saying, 'And the Spirit of God hovered':  this alludes to the 'spirit of the Messiah', as you read, 'And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him' (Isa. 11:2)...." McDonough, Christ as Creator
Here we see that the Rabbis equated the "Spirit of G-d" with the "Spirit of Moshiach."  

So it really shouldn't come as a shock to Orthodox Jews that the Apostolic Writings say that the Word of G-d made His sukkah with mankind, revealing the Divine Glory in the form of Yeshua, the Davidic Moshiach.  The Rabbis have already said that the "sukkah" represents the Divine Glory and that the "sukkah" represents the Moshiach ben David!  :  )

May G-d reveal His Glory to all Israel in our day!  May G-d bless the city of David and shelter it with His Peace!

Shalom,

Peter

136 comments:

  1. Peter, try as you might, couching detestable idolatry of man-worship in allegory is not going make it "OK". Your analogies are not going to become a reality. You, along with hundreds of millions of others of your coreligionists, worship a creature as god. That's the cold reality uncouched in any allegory. It really bothers you that Jews rejected your "god" and stubbornly stuck to the only True G-d that they ever knew, that they refused to betray their Creator and consider joining you and your fellow Christians in bowing to a dead man.

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    1. Gene,

      The "Word" of G-d is not a creature. Rather, it is the "Word" which first resides in G-d as G-d's thought and is then spoken and, as an emanation, creates everything in our universe.

      You, for example, are created because a transcendent G-d used His immanent Word to construct your physical form, used His Ruach to breath out your spiritual form. You are a product of a transcendent Father and the immanent Word and Ruach.

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    2. "The "Word" of G-d is not a creature"

      Whatever allegory one wishes to assign to his false deity will not make that idol into the G-d of Israel. Christian allegories about its false deity are not a reality. Jesus, a man born of a woman certainly is a creature, just like you and I are creatures.

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  2. Good finds, I need to find a reference that Rashi made, in Psalms regarding Messiah, the reference is clearly in reference to the Divine.

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    1. Zion, do you seriously believe that Rashi thought that the future Jewish messianic king will be divine or god in any form? Christians have been torturing, misquoting and twisting in every possible way Jewish writings for thousands of years to make them say what the original authors abhorred. And this is exactly what this post is doing and what your comments are doing. Nothing new.

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    2. Zion, do you seriously believe that Rashi thought that the future Jewish messianic king will be divine or god in any form? Christians have been torturing, misquoting and twisting in every possible way Jewish writings for thousands of years to make them say what the original authors abhorred. And this is exactly what this post is doing and what your comments are doing. Nothing new.

      Gene, no actually I do not believe Rashi thought this, and certainly not Yeshua, however I do consider his references concerning the Messiah, which many times are used by those who believe Yeshua is the Messiah, has merit, and is not a whimsical idea, as many claim, you are just reading the "New Testament back into the Tanakh" Just because you disagree or think Christians and Messianics are idiots, does not change the possibility of a different interpretation, based on some of the same references.

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    3. It's one thing to try to reinterpret pre-Christian Jewish writings in support of Christianity. But the disingenuousness reaches new heights when post-Christian Jewish writings of sages and rabbis, people who were fully aware of Christianity and vehemently opposed its deification of a man, are re-interpreted in support of Christianity.

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    4. It's one thing to try to reinterpret pre-Christian Jewish writings in support of Christianity. But the disingenuousness reaches new heights when post-Christian Jewish writings of sages and rabbis, people who were fully aware of Christianity and vehemently opposed its deification of a man, are re-interpreted in support of Christianity.

      I understand, but I made it clear, that Rashi clearly did not think the Messiah was deity or that Yeshua was the Messiah. Only that his references can be used and interpreted differently.

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    5. Also, just to be clear, I would have hated Christianity as well, if I lived during the time of Rashi.

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    6. Imagine if Rashi would be alive today! How sharply would he rebuke those who use his word to prove something he hated!

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  3. It makes me laugh when I hear the usual argument, which is: "Christian and Messianic beliefs are contrary or foreign to Judaism, and are pagan in nature", and while there are certainly pagan beliefs intertwined inside of Christianity, most concepts or ideas are taken from Judaism, being that the Christian faith is based on the message of Jews who believed that Yeshua was the Messiah in the 1st century and spread that message. And look today, it worked, it spread like a wild fire. And just think, if it wasn't for those Jews, none of us gentiles would even be talking about the God of Israel today, much less trying to keep His commandments, we would still be worshiping sticks and stones, like a bunch of idiots. But as you shown above and I have read many places as well, there have been Rabbi's who interpreted Isaiah 53 as speaking of the Messiah, not just Christianity or Messianics. So when we hear these concepts are foreign to Judaism, maybe Modern Rabbinic Judaism, but certainly not all of Judaism or historical Judaism.

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    1. Zion,

      RE: " So when we hear these concepts are foreign to Judaism, maybe Modern Rabbinic Judaism, but certainly not all of Judaism or historical Judaism."

      Well said.

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    2. The whole idea of a man born of a virgin and being a god is pagan. The whole idea of a trinity is pagan. The whole idea of Satan and dualism is pagan. The whole idea of a man-sacrifice is pagan. For the rest, I agree with you, Jesus was Jewish. I think that the writer of the New Testament based themselves on a Jewish rabbi, but that's the Jewishness of it. That's it.

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    3. The whole idea of a man born of a virgin and being a god is pagan. The whole idea of a trinity is pagan. The whole idea of Satan and dualism is pagan. The whole idea of a man-sacrifice is pagan.

      The ignorance is strong with this one. :P

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    5. The insults are rampant in this blog. And they follow someone that say "love your enemy". Please Zion, read those, what I said is true. Your Trinity was first invented by a gnostic Valentinus and taken from pagan Three-gods. Nothing new under the sun!


      Miraculous births, virgin birth in mythology and religion
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgin_birth

      Triple Deity
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valentinus_(Gnostic)
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_deity
      http://www.encyclopedia.com/article-1G2-3424500857/dying-and-rising-gods.html

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    6. "And they follow someone that say "love your enemy".

      Remi, Jesus didn't love his enemies, far from it - he wanted them dead (Luke 19:27) and condemned to eternity of suffering forever (Mark 16:16). Why should his followers do any better than their "god"? Just because some anonymous church scribe wrote down in the NT that he supposedly uttered those words?

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    7. Gene, I agree with you. Like "someone" said "You will know them by their fruits". And as far as the Christian Fruits, they are more scarlet than white! And I can see a bunch of people quick to laugh at others. If I am wrong, which I doubt, you won't convince anybody that you are right by insulting others and being bullies of the web.

      That's my thought, and it's good for any beliefs.

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    8. "But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me.'"

      I wonder why so many non-Christians died by the hand of those who follow your Messiah...

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    9. Gene wrote:
      "Jesus didn't love his enemies, far from it - he wanted them dead (Luke 19:27) and condemned to eternity of suffering forever (Mark 16:16).


      Gene wrote:
      "per gospel accounts, Jesus was very much a political figure - a "king". He was a pacifist (although his crew carried swords!), and refused to resist political authorities of the day and (supposedly) willingly suffered abuse at the hands of foreign occupiers."

      Got it - Gene thinks that the Gospels show Yeshua as a tyrant and a pacifist.

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    10. Jason, the history of Christianity shows full well how peaceful it really was, especially toward Jews.

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    11. The insults are rampant in this blog. And they follow someone that say "love your enemy". Please Zion, read those, what I said is true. Your Trinity was first invented by a gnostic Valentinus and taken from pagan Three-gods. Nothing new under the sun!

      Remi few things here, I don't consider you my enemy, and I certainly do not hate you, I only consider you ignorant, nothing more and nothing less. Nothing of what you posted is true, there is just as much nonsense concerning the "Pagan Roots" of the "Old Testament" baloney, as there is the "New Testament", do you believe those as well? Next time do your homework.

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    12. Jason, the history of Christianity shows full well how peaceful it really was, especially toward Jews.

      Gene, no one is going to deny the evil side of Christianity, seen historically. However you can't blame that on the Gospels or even all Christians, millions of Christians have been slaughtered by Christians, clearly not everyone held the same beliefs. The bigger picture, is the history of the gentile nations, which is terrible, stretching back much further than Christianity. Some things just never change, and in fact we both know one day, the nations will rise up again, which is already starting to happen right now and will go against Jews and Israel, minus Christianity, it will still happen again.

      I think you are just extremely bitter towards Christianity. Am I right or Amirite?

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    13. Gene wrote:
      "Jason, the history of Christianity shows full well how peaceful it really was, especially toward Jews."

      What do the apostolic writings teach?

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    14. The church scribe who penned the NT wrote that those Jews who refuse to put their faith in the Christian idol / false "god" will be condemned to painful torments and that the enemies of Jesus are to be slaughtered by his servants.

      "But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me." (Luke 19:27)

      I think that those words were quite enough of an encouragement for Jesus' followers, who were more than eager to help Jesus with all the "enemies" who refused to bow to him (a.k.a. Jews).

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    15. I think those words remind of God who killed the firstborn of Egypt, who commanded the slaughter of men, women, children, and animals of pagans, who sent a flood and wiped out all but Noah....so what's your point? What of he who said:

      "Go through the city after him and strike! Don’t let your eye spare; have no pity! 6 Kill old men, young men, girls, little children, women — slaughter them all! But don’t go near anyone with the mark. Begin at my sanctuary.” They began with the leaders in front of the house. 7 Then he said to them, “Defile the house! Fill the courtyards with corpses! Get going!” So they went out, spreading death in the city."

      So, are you critisizing God?

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    16. Merciless... the topic here is Jesus' supposed love for his enemies.

      With that in mind, let me remind you that Christianity posits that while in the "Old Testament", with its supposedly harsh and "obsolete" Law, "eye for an eye" ruled and enemies vanquished, Jesus supposedly brought humanity "forgiveness", "mercy", "grace" and above all, "love thy enemy" and "pray for those who persecute you". I am pointing out the sheer hypocrisy of your idolatrous religion, both of its claimed founder and his followers. And your own personal hypocrisy as well.

      "So, are you critisizing God?"

      I am criticizing worthless detestable idols. And let me remind, again, Merciless, that the dead man idol before which you bow is no "god".

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    17. Zion, this is a nice little extract of Moby Dick, a passage I was listening this morning. And for the Hebrew Scripture, being of pagan origin, well, I am waiting for your quote to disprove the Hebrew Scripture, but would like to remind you that you also believe the Hebrew Scriptures, and if you want to do so,... well you can convince all of us that god is not true :)

      That wondrous oriental story is now to be rehearsed from the Shaster, which gives us the dread Vishnu, one of the three persons in the godhead of the Hindoos

      occurs in a separate department of the
      wall, depicting the incarnation of Vishnu in the form of
      leviathan, learnedly known as the Matser Avatar.

      Moby Dick

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    18. And for the Hebrew Scripture, being of pagan origin, well, I am waiting for your quote to disprove the Hebrew Scripture, but would like to remind you that you also believe the Hebrew Scriptures, and if you want to do so,... well you can convince all of us that god is not true :)

      Remi, it is now extremely obvious that English is not your first language, I never said the Hebrew Scripture is of pagan origin, if you learn how to read in English, go back to my post to see what I actually wrote to you.

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    19. The church scribe who penned the NT

      Gene, do you pull this stuff out of a magic hat?

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    20. "Gene, do you pull this stuff out of a magic hat?"

      History, Zion, history. You don't actually believe that the "apostles" wrote the NT, do you?

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    21. Gene, who do you actually think wrote the various book in the Tanakh?

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    22. Let's see: Torah was written by Moshe (final additions may have been done by later Jewish authorities). Psalms mostly by David and some by later contributors. Prophets - by the prophets themselves. At very least one could say that they are not anonymous works like the gospels (except for Luke, but then again, he was no apostle nor did he ever see Jesus), but instead clearly identify the author from within the text itself. The gospels - the "authors" by which the books were named were assigned to them later by the church, and the earliest gospel in our possession, Mark - well, there was no such apostle hanging around Jesus. Matthew, the supposed "aposttle", decided to copy the non-eyewitness/non-apostle Mark almost word for word, with a few elaborations (and so did Luke). And the crazy "John", well, he must have no gotten the memo, and created his own "spiritual gospel" that contradicts the other three in most details.

      So, the bottom line, the NT was penned by church scribes, and not by any apostles.

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    23. Gene, just as I had suspected, when it comes to liberal biblical criticism, you have no problem with it concerning the NT, but when the same bogus perspectives are put forward concerning the Tanakh, you completely reject them. You use it to fit your bitter hate for Christianity, nothing to see here folks, move right along.

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    24. Zion, it's NOT liberal scholarship - it's OBVIOUS just by reading the NT that the authors of the gospels are neither the apostles nor even eyewitness. What's bogus and outright idolatry is worshiping a man who you think is "god". That's not "liberal biblical criticism" - that's an outright sin against your true Maker. Idols have always been seductive because they "give" people something more tangible and relatable, and the man-god Jesus, the false deity of the billions, is no exception. It takes courage to let go of the idolatrous seduction (and fear) and return to the Creator of the Universe, to the G-d of Israel.

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    25. Gene wrote:
      "Jason, the history of Christianity shows full well how peaceful it really was, especially toward Jews."

      Jason wrote:
      "What do the apostolic writings teach?"

      Gene wrote:
      "But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me." (Luke 19:27)"

      First this is taken from the parable of the minas. Second, the apostolic writings teach repeatedly that Yeshua spoke parables to hide meaning. For example:

      “And He said to them, “To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables,”
      ‭‭Mark‬ ‭4:11‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

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    26. "But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me." (Luke 19:27)""

      OK, Jason, since you are on the "inside", please do explain the above parable.

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    27. Zion: "Jesus spoke in parables for those outside the 'fold'." (Paraphrased)

      Gene: ""But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me." (Luke 19:27)"

      OK, Jason, since you are on the "inside", please do explain the above parable."

      Can't help but laugh at that one, lol. I'm really curious to see what Zion thinks this means about us Jesus hating, Jesus killing Jews.

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    28. Zion: "Jesus spoke in parables for those outside the 'fold'." (Paraphrased)

      Gene: ""But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me." (Luke 19:27)"

      OK, Jason, since you are on the "inside", please do explain the above parable."

      Can't help but laugh at that one, lol. I'm really curious to see what Zion thinks this means about us Jesus hating, Jesus killing Jews.


      Were you referring to Jason or me?

      You quoted me, even though I did not write that. Regardless, I will explain it, it is actually very simple.

      I don't see the issue here, God slew many Jews, due to not listening to the 'messiahs'(anointed ones) of their day. For one example and there are others: Korach, he rebelled against God's anointed one, Moshe, and what was the result, he was slain as an enemy of God. All through the Nevi'im, we read that God will eventually slay all of His enemies. Now, just because most Jews throughout time 'did not/do not' believe that Yeshua is the Messiah, does not make them enemies of God. Even Yeshua himself, states: those who are not against me, are for me. Not only that, through the century's, many have misrepresented Yeshua, and anyone who rejected that misrepresentation, is not rejecting Yeshua, they are just rejecting some stupid gentiles, no harm in that. Second, according to Isaiah and Romans, it was actually part of God's plan that He would be rejected by His own, just like many of the Prophets were, nothing new there either, and this was so that the Gentiles could take part, until a certain time period, fulfilling the promise to Abraham and ultimately to Israel.

      So just because one does not believe in Yeshua or does not accept the gentile Jesus or Christianity, does not make one an enemy of God. It is a bit more complex than that.

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    29. A. Michael wrote:
      "Can't help but laugh at that one, lol. I'm really curious to see what Zion thinks this means about us Jesus hating, Jesus killing Jews."

      Aaron M. and Real B. are the same person. Zion and Jason are not :)

      I find the claim that the apostolic writings are anti-Jewish to be dubious seeing that Yeshua, his apostles, his disciples, and the apostolic authors (save possibly Luke) were all Jewish. Enter the church scribe meme.

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    30. "God slew many Jews, due to not listening to the 'messiahs'(anointed ones) of their day?"

      Were the Crusades also G-d judgement on Jew?

      "God's anointed one, Moshe"

      Moshe did not claim to be G-d and no other prophets claimed to be either. Jesus is the first one to claim to be a god. Wait, no, many others were before him and sometimes Jews were killed because they also refused to bow to those gods. Was this G-d judgement on them Zion?

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    31. God slew Jews who forsook the Torah, like Yeshu who was indeed a mamzer but claimed his father was divine and not Paupos. The prophets were pushing for Jews to repent by removing idolatry and keeping the Torah again. Those who did were saved. The Torah attests to this and it says that when a prophet or dreamer arises, if he says to worship other gods, or to disobey the Torah, he's a false prophet and was sent to test us.

      All of you, Zion and Jason (the misquote doesn't matter much since you seem to believe the same thing about this), are attesting to the truth that Yeshu was a false 'prophet' and that, just as the Torah says, following him or believing he is a god is idolatry. He's the real "anti-Christ", lol, how ironic. This is so clear to someone who reads the plain text of the Torah, yet what you claim about us is what you yourselves are afflicted with: blinders on your eyes.

      When you get rid of that emotional connection to the idol and false messiah and fess up to reality and stop fooling yourselves, you'll feel great.

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    32. God slew Jews who forsook the Torah, like Yeshu who was indeed a mamzer but claimed his father was divine and not Paupos. The prophets were pushing for Jews to repent by removing idolatry and keeping the Torah again. Those who did were saved. The Torah attests to this and it says that when a prophet or dreamer arises, if he says to worship other gods, or to disobey the Torah, he's a false prophet and was sent to test us.

      The first message we find in the Gospels concerning the prophecy of "John the Baptist", is that his purpose is to get Israel to repent and turn back to God. Yeshua's message was to do the will of the father. Yeshua did not say to worship other gods or to disobey the Torah, so He does not fit the category of a false prophet.

      All of you, Zion and Jason (the misquote doesn't matter much since you seem to believe the same thing about this), are attesting to the truth that Yeshu was a false 'prophet' and that, just as the Torah says, following him or believing he is a god is idolatry. He's the real "anti-Christ", lol, how ironic. This is so clear to someone who reads the plain text of the Torah, yet what you claim about us is what you yourselves are afflicted with: blinders on your eyes.

      Again we don't believe in a man-god, and I recite the Shema every day, you actually think I believe in multiple gods?, we believe in One God, the God Israel and we do not limit His ability to manifest Himself in any way He chooses, whether by the Holy Spirit or the Messiah. It is you who have decided what God can and cannot do. But you also prove the prophecies to be true, that He would be rejected by His own people, and that this is for a time period. One day you will see the Messiah for who He truly is.

      When you get rid of that emotional connection to the idol and false messiah and fess up to reality and stop fooling yourselves, you'll feel great.

      I grew up in Christianity and left it when I was in college, I became agnostic, years later while searching for truth, I started going to an Orthodox Synagogue, I attended for almost a year, being educated by a very nice and intelligent rabbi, a great community, and then I was introduced to Messianic Judaism and found the rest of the pieces to the puzzle. The reality is, I am just seeking truth, and I found Yeshua the Messiah and He is who the prophets speak of and one day you will also accept Him, I look forward to it, because the promises to Israel will come true, no matter what happens. :D

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    33. You cannot repent when you believe a man is god. The Torah says God is not a man. Idolatry is akin to breaking the whole Torah, so when you fall into that, you're not repenting, you're doing the exact opposite.

      If Yeshu said he was a normal man, perhaps with a high soul or something, and he got people to return back to the Torah, he would be okay. If he overthrew foreign authority, returned more Jews to Israel, and re-established the Jewish empire of David and Solomon, he would fit the role of the Messiah.

      He didn't do any of that. Plus, the fact he died before doing any of that means he's totally disqualified. Even so, if you wanted to argue the effects of what he did would role on after his death and cause all of this to happen, you'd still be at a loss because the effect of what he did was the exact opposite of all of the above.

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    34. Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

      Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

      That fits Jesus...

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    35. You cannot repent when you believe a man is god. The Torah says God is not a man. Idolatry is akin to breaking the whole Torah, so when you fall into that, you're not repenting, you're doing the exact opposite.

      I don't believe God is a man, I believe that Yeshua is an emanation of God. Which is different than what you are describing. Also, the verse you reference is not saying what you want, while I still agree that God is not a man, however I do believe that God can emanate Himself as a man, the verse you referenced is being taken out of context. God is not a man, that He should lie. Paraphrasing, unlike mankind, God does not lie. God however is all powerful and can emanate Himself in however way He desires, and does so many times as we see in the Tanakh.

      If Yeshu said he was a normal man, perhaps with a high soul or something, and he got people to return back to the Torah, he would be okay. If he overthrew foreign authority, returned more Jews to Israel, and re-established the Jewish empire of David and Solomon, he would fit the role of the Messiah.

      He didn't do any of that. Plus, the fact he died before doing any of that means he's totally disqualified. Even so, if you wanted to argue the effects of what he did would role on after his death and cause all of this to happen, you'd still be at a loss because the effect of what he did was the exact opposite of all of the above.


      The Apostolic Writings say that He is going to do this exactly. Why do you think it is going to happen in one night, why is not possible to be a process, like everything God does? Again you are just accepting a tradition, but if you think outside the box a little, you will realize, it does not have to be exactly the way tradition describes it, in fact, it usually never is. Even in Isaiah 53, which I know you will deny, it states the Messiah would die. It is all part of a grand plan.

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    36. "God however is all powerful and can emanate Himself"

      As in a golden calf!

      You heard the sound of the words, but saw no form...
      Take careful heed to yourselves, for you saw no form when the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, lest you act corruptly and (worship a created thing)!

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    37. As in a golden calf!

      Do you ever wonder why I quit responding to you? This is a perfect example. By the way, the answer is no. Carry on...


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    38. I am not answering for you to comment, but maybe someone who seeks the truth will see how ludicrous is your belief!

      G-d manifested himself in the burning bush. Should we worship Bushes? Do you remember the Serpent that Moses created? It was destroyed by Hezekiah. He removed the high places, smashed the sacred stones and cut down the Asherah poles. He broke into pieces the bronze snake Moses had made, for up to that time the Israelites had been burning incense to it.

      G-d has emanated Himself in several ways in the Bible, but G-d said not to worship something they have not seen at Month Horeb. Thus worshiping those emanation were wrong (I am not saying Jesus was one of them). Even if G-d was in the burning bush or in the snake, people are asked to worship the only invisible G-d they "saw" at Horeb. And they say no form!

      Delete
    39. Zion wrote:
      "Even Yeshua himself, states: those who are not against me, are for me."

      It should be noted that using pejoratives like man-god, idol, and Yeshu put one firmly in the "against me" column.

      Even if I didn't accept His return, I wouldn't thumb my nose at "a dead man". This isn't courage, but zeal and foolishness.

      Delete
    40. "It should be noted that using pejoratives like man-god, idol, and Yeshu put one firmly in the "against me" column."

      In Judaism, the only mockery permitted is one of idols and idolatry. The man-god idol worship deserves to be ridiculed to wake people up to their sin and foolishness. This pattern is clearly observed in the TaNaKh and especially in the prophets.

      Delete
    41. "I don't believe God is a man, I believe that Yeshua is an emanation of God. Which is different than what you are describing."

      Zion, your excuses for the obvious sin of idolatry (obvious, of course, to those who are not completely indoctrinated into Christianity) of calling a human being "god" and worshiping him are simply verbal gymnastics. Using Jewish terminology in attempt excuse Christian idolatry changes nothing - Jesus is still a false god.

      Delete
    42. Zion, your excuses for the obvious sin of idolatry (obvious, of course, to those who are not completely indoctrinated into Christianity) of calling a human being "god" and worshiping him are simply verbal gymnastics. Using Jewish terminology in attempt excuse Christian idolatry changes nothing - Jesus is still a false god.

      Gene, believe as you wish, I feel secure and comfortable in my beliefs, I am not stressing over it. I have weighed out both sides of the argument, many times.

      Delete
    43. Zion, let me introduce you to basic logic. If the Torah says "God is not a man that he would lie, nor the son of man (human being)...", it means that since it is apparent that God is not a man, then naturally he does not lie.

      You see, "God is not a man" is the proof that God doesn't lie. The fact that God was not a man was indisputable and known to all that the Torah was addressing, and therefore it is used as a proof to point out another fact. The point that He is not a man isn't even proven, nor does it need to be, because it is an established and obvious fact.

      I know you comprehend this very basic logic, I know it's not too hard for you. It's just that you're blinded to the truth and you know how damaging this verse is to the belief in a man-god, so you act like it doesn't say what it clearly, plainly, and obviously does say.

      Secondly, you say that you think Yeshu is an emanation of God, not God Himself. You're in a world of confusion, let me explain why.

      Every creation has a time, place, and form, which translate to time, space, and mass. God does not have a time, space, or mass. He is infinite and both above and transcending these. You cannot define what, who, when, or where God is. There is no defining Him.

      All we can determine is how He acts towards us and what He wants. We can know how to do His will via the Torah, and that is the purpose of the life of the Jew and by it, his soul is made infinite by being incorporated into HaShem's essence on an entirely spiritual level after he dies. I've mentioned some of this before.

      You saying Yeshu is an emanation of God makes no sense, since everything that exists has some spark of holiness that allows it to exist, otherwise it would not exist. The shells, husks, forces of evil, cover and clothe the pieces of holiness in all things. Our bodies are clothing for the many different parts of our souls which are holy at their source. When we sin with our body, we damage our souls. When we serve HaShem with our body, we purify our souls. All we're left with when we die is our souls, our intellect, all of the holiness/Torah we indulged it in during this lifetime. The higher the consciousness of holiness/Godliness which is Torah, the greater off our souls will be when we die.

      The essential part of the Torah and becoming active in serving HaShem by it is all rooted in realizing that God is infinite, One, above all comprehension entirely. This is the Abrahamic revelation that is necessary to accept and believe constantly without a hint of doubt, before one could ever imagine being holy, righteous, or good in God's eyes. If you don't have that, you're done for. And you are telling us that you're done for because you don't believe that. And don't say you do to try to fit what you believe somehow into the Torah's framework. It is simple and you are complicating it and confusing yourself by making it something complex. The angels, the stars, the universe, nature, our souls, etc, are NOT God and it is NOT fitting to worship any of them as God. God Himself isn't confined into any one of them.

      Delete
    44. Jason said: "It should be noted that using pejoratives like man-god, idol, and Yeshu put one firmly in the "against me" column. Even if I didn't accept His return, I wouldn't thumb my nose at "a dead man". This isn't courage, but zeal and foolishness."

      Onkelos, before converting to Judaism (and before knowing he wanted, summoned a few souls who had died. One of them was Yeshu. His punishment for spurning the words of Hazal (and everything else he did) was boiling in excrement.

      In Toldot Yeshu, it records that the people called him Yizush, an acronym for "Yimah Zikhro U-Shemo", the same meaning as Yeshu just with the words reversed.

      It's not a matter of courage or zealotry, it's a matter of truth vs. lie, fact vs. fiction.

      Delete
    45. Gene wrote:
      "In Judaism, the only mockery permitted is one of idols and idolatry. The man-god idol worship deserves to be ridiculed to wake people up to their sin and foolishness. This pattern is clearly observed in the TaNaKh and especially in the prophets."

      Per the Tanakh:
      idol = spiritless image
      idolatry = bowing before idol

      To see Gene's inability to defend his claim that Christianity is idol worship, see the comments at the following link, scroll half way down, and start reading at the following comment:

      http://orthodoxmessianic.blogspot.com/2015/12/bridges-to-baal-how-satan-uses.html?m=1

      [Jason wrote]:

      "
      Gene wrote:
      "Jason, a good Torah description of what is idolatry can be found in Deuteronomy 4:15-19."

      So, here's Deuteronomy‬ ‭4:16, 23, 25‬ ‭NKJV‬‬:
      ...
      "

      Delete
    46. And along the lines of what Gene mentioned, please remember Elijah cursing the prophets of Ba`al, suggesting their god was on the toilet and couldn't come to their call. Then he ordered the slaughter of the prophets of Ba`al. Elijah actually did ascend to heaven. He was more righteous and holy than you could imagine. And he mocked an idol and slaughtered its priests and prophets. Your idea of righteousness doesn't have to do with the Torah's.

      Delete
    47. Jason, don't call yourself "Orthodox" like you have some affinity to the Rabbinic. If you understood the Torah according to the oral tradition passed down from Moses throughout David, Solomon, the Prophets, Ezra and the final three Prophets of Tanakh directly to the "Rabbis" (Hazal) - if you understood the Torah from THEIR persepctive, meaning the real and true perspective, then you'd know what idolatry is, clearly, and wouldn't make up some silly trash, minimizing it, and suggesting that worshiping a guy that you claim is God's literal son isn't idolatry.

      Delete
    48. The essential part of the Torah and becoming active in serving HaShem by it is all rooted in realizing that God is infinite, One, above all comprehension entirely. This is the Abrahamic revelation that is necessary to accept and believe constantly without a hint of doubt, before one could ever imagine being holy, righteous, or good in God's eyes. If you don't have that, you're done for. And you are telling us that you're done for because you don't believe that. And don't say you do to try to fit what you believe somehow into the Torah's framework. It is simple and you are complicating it and confusing yourself by making it something complex. The angels, the stars, the universe, nature, our souls, etc, are NOT God and it is NOT fitting to worship any of them as God. God Himself isn't confined into any one of them.

      Aaron, you are over simplifying the issue. God's nature is complex, you even stated that, then you said it was simple. You are welcome to reject the one whom God has sent, its called free will, but I choose to accept Him.

      Delete
    49. A. Michael wrote:
      "please remember Elijah cursing the prophets of Ba`al, suggesting their god was on the toilet and couldn't come to their call."

      Can we agree Elijah was a prophet to whom the Word of the L-rd came and who then spoke against Ahab and mocked the prophets of Ba'al? Do you in the same way claim to speak against me?

      Delete
    50. A. Michael wrote:
      "Jason, don't call yourself "Orthodox" like you have some affinity to the Rabbinic."

      Aaron, please refrain from fabrication.

      I adhere to Apostolic Judaism, not Rabbinic (Orthodox or otherwise).

      (Thanks.)

      Delete
    51. "I feel secure and comfortable in my beliefs"

      Maybe Jesus is sleeping in heaven? Wait, I thought that idol worship was only to bow to statues?

      Cry aloud, for he is a god; either he is meditating, or he is busy, or he is on a journey, or perhaps he is sleeping and must be awakened.

      Idols don't do that! they don't walk in heaven and are not on Journey! Maybe the Baal worshipper thought Baal was not only a statue, that he was a literal god, just like your god Jesus!

      I wonder if the Baal Worshipper felt comfortable in their belief, I bet they did!

      Delete
    52. No one said Ba'al was an idol, remi. This is why I've begun skipping your posts. Please stop the trolling.

      Delete
    53. First, Baal was a statue.

      http://www.ancient.eu/baal/

      Second, the priest of Baal were idol... atrous!

      And he put down the idolatrous priests, whom the kings of Judah had ordained to burn incense in the high places in the cities of Judah, and in the places round about Jerusalem; them also that burned incense unto Baal, to the sun, and to the moon, and to the planets, and to all the host of heaven.

      So Baal was an idol.

      Delete
    54. Jason said: "Can we agree Elijah was a prophet to whom the Word of the L-rd came and who then spoke against Ahab and mocked the prophets of Ba'al? Do you in the same way claim to speak against me?"

      You're a follower of an idol, a man who is dead who you call divine. That's an idol. You pray to him or at least in his name. Let's use logic again. If a righteous Prophet mocks an idol, I who am not a prophet can CERTAINLY mock and idol.

      As for not adhering to 'Rabbinic' Judaism, that is exactly my point. But it is good that you clarified that position, in that you were not trying to make it seem as if you were a 'Rabbinic' follower of Yeshu, as some claim to be. Thanks for that clarification, I understand what you mean now, by using the term 'Orthodox'.

      Delete
    55. Statue of Ba'al, sun, moon, planets... idols.

      Ba'al... not idol.

      Delete
    56. Aaron,
      I believe the apostolic writings in which people witnessed Yeshua alive.

      You believe the rabbinic writings which deny this and refer to Yeshu.

      Your position is no more biblical or logical than mine.

      Neither of us, I presume, is bowing to spiritless images. See commandment #2 for my position on idols.

      Delete
    57. The man-god idol worship deserves to be ridiculed to wake people up to their sin and foolishness.

      Idol worshipper should be ridiculed. We both agree
      Idol or Jesus worshipper should be ridiculed. We both agree (I hope)
      Baal worshipper were ridiculed. We both agree
      Jesus worshippers should be ridiculed.

      I don't see the difference with Baal, as he was not an idol (as per you) and was also ridiculed.

      Delete
    58. A. Michael wrote:
      "I understand what you mean now, by using the term 'Orthodox'."

      I don't remember using it, but I'm glad to not be talking passed each other.

      Delete
    59. remi wrote:
      "don't see the difference with Baal, as he was not an idol (as per you) and was also ridiculed."

      The Word of the L-rd came to the one doing the ridiculing. You have no idea who Yeshua is. (If you want to mock Ba'al which may be a demon, that's your business.)

      Delete
    60. Just a question Jason, do you were a Kippah when you go to your Kehila?

      Delete
    61. "You have no idea who Yeshua is"

      We can disagree, but wouldn't the follower of the L-rd right to ridicule Baal worshipper? Any Baal worshipper could have say "you have no reason to ridicule him, he is god and the L-rd is not. As per the Hebrew Scriptures, the people in 1 CE did not know Jesus nor worshipped him. And as per this reason, he is a new arrival god that was not worshipped at Horbe and deserved to be ridiculed!

      Delete
    62. "Son of man, these men have set up idols in their hearts and put wicked stumbling blocks before their faces. Should I let them inquire of me at all?

      Not all idols are statues Jason...

      Delete
    63. remi,

      I'm aware that male head covering is modern rabbinic. That doesn't make it good or bad, although I would have to research its compatibility with Paul.

      In your quote idols are placed before faces which confirms my definition of spiritless image. Yes the image can invigorate the heart, too.

      Regarding ridiculing those who accept the apostolic writings: defeat the writings of you want to win the individual.

      Delete
    64. Why do Gene, Aaron, remi, et al believe Yeshua even existed? (Fwiw, I'm still waiting for Gene to share his sources, which teach him about Yeshua and his disciples.)

      Delete
    65. Jesus could be invented by the Roman empire, I have no problem with that either.

      Delete
    66. Do you also reject the rabbinic writings (RW), the oldest manuscripts of which are between 575 and 1250 years younger than the AW?

      Delete
    67. "In your quote idols are placed before faces which confirms my definition of spiritless image. Yes the image can invigorate the heart, too."

      Jason, you have a problem with understanding what "idol" is. First of all, there's no word "idol" in Hebrew - the Bible calls idols "gods", that is false "gods" other than the True G-d. So, anything that people see as a "god" that's not the True G-d is an "idol". Your Jesus, a dead-man who was turned into a god by his fellow human beings (not unlike what was done to many other human beings before Jesus and since). It doesn't matter if that thing once possessed a "spirit" - all long dead deified men (pharaohs, kings, gurus) had "spirits". To worship them was idolatry and sin, just as it is sin to worship another dead man, Jesus.

      Interestingly,

      Delete
    68. Interestingly and ironically, NT - must have been a layer written before Jesus' own deification - itself scolds people for being proclaimed as gods and not correcting people and describes G-d as punishing them with a gruesome and humbling death. Herod is a good example of that in Acts 12:22-23.

      "They shouted, "This is the voice of a god, not of a man. Immediately, because Herod did not give praise to God, an angel of the Lord struck him down, and he was eaten by worms and died."

      Christians today do the very same thing in regards to man Jesus, by saying that "this is a god, and not[mere] man". How ironic and pathetic!

      Delete
    69. Gene, do you believe the Holy Spirit is an emanation of God?

      Delete
    70. Gene, go and check that one... I am not taking it seriously, but thought it kinda fit jesus...

      http://www.traditioninaction.org/Questions/K017_AntiChrist.html

      Delete
    71. Gene wrote:
      "First of all, there's no word "idol" in Hebrew - the Bible calls idols "gods""

      According to Google, an idol is "an image or representation of a god". The second commandment prohibits making for oneself graven images. So, the English word idol is tied biblically to graven images not gods.

      Do you believe that the Most High had gods or idols for children in Psalm 82:6?

      Delete
    72. And idol is anything you worship as God besides HaShem. That's why Hazal said unrighteous anger is a minor type of idolatry because anger is caused by the smashing of an ideal. If that ideal is personal, like you get angry because someone ruined an ideal set up (for example, the restaurant delivered you the wrong dish), then it's like idolatry.

      Worshiping Yeshu is idolatry. Praying "in his name" is the same. Islam technically isn't idolatry on the complete scale, yet because they set up laws different to the Torah's, they're still doing a form of idolatry.

      No one gets eternal life if they reject the Torah, including the oral Torah which was relayed by Moses and entrusted to the Sages who followed him. It's not a secret by us what it takes for a person to have eternal life. It has everything to do with submitting to God's will, the Torah, and refining your soul here on earth so that when you pass away, you won't need any refinement in Gehinnom in order to be joined to your Creator. Since HaShem is infinite, we can live infinitely "with" Him by annulling our egos to Him. It has nothing to do with believing in a man-god and forgoing the mitzvot (whether the 7 laws of Noah for the gentile, or the 613 for the Jew, since the Jew has a different role in creation than the gentile).

      Also, you don't quote Google on what an idol is, you quote the Torah. Idols are called "images", "gods", and it does NOT refer to just a physical object that people worship. If a Greek worships or prays to Zeus without a statue of Zeus, he's still an idolater. OBVIOUSLY, lol.

      Delete
    73. Psalm 82:6? REALLY?

      "Elohim" also means judges and can mean angels. "Elilim" is usually the word meant for idols. It also means "gods", roughly.

      Learn Hebrew, Jason.

      Delete
    74. Zion, Gene can answer how he likes, but I'd like to answer that for you. First know that the Holy Spirit is an entirely Jewish term. It is a lesser level of prophecy. It is also intertwined with the Shekhina, God's Divine Presence.

      If HaShem is everywhere yet not contained in anything, how would there be a Shekhina? It's a greater manifestation of God's *Presence*. You don't go out and find the Shekhina, like at the Kotel where it rests all the time, and bow down to the Shekhina. Then you're making the Shekhina an idol and that's pretty stupid. I don't know who would do that. Clearly, you would realize that a certain place is more holy than other places and the Shekhina that many can feel as a weightiness at the Kotel is an indication of that. You don't pray to the Shekhina or worship it, because it is God's Presence, you pray to and worship GOD.

      If someone worshiped the sun, and then they started to worship the rays, how much sense would that make? Secondly, the Shekhina isn't physical. Thirdly, angels of good who carry with them different presences of God are not worshiped, either. You guys just don't get it, do you? You really try to make this a complicated thing and claim that worshiping a dead heretical Jew is alright.

      Delete
    75. A. Michael wrote:
      "Psalm 82:6? REALLY?

      "Elohim" also means judges and can mean angels. "Elilim" is usually the word meant for idols. It also means "gods", roughly.

      Learn Hebrew, Jason."

      Gene said there was no word for idol in Hebrew and that idols and gods were the same thing, so I was pointing out that HaShem did not have idols for sons in Ps 82:6.

      Idol, idolatry, and idolater have narrowly scoped meanings in English that map to the second commandment. In an English discussion, are English dictionaries now out of bounds? The AW (Apostolic Writings) do not advance idolatry or breaking the first commandment either. By continuing to use this word you intentionally advance a LIE. Islam may allow this when speaking to an infidel, but I was thinking Judaism did not.

      Re:Chazal, yes I know you accept all the rabbinic writings. If the AW are based on "oral legend" how much more the RW, whose manuscripts in nearly all cases are more than 1000 years younger!

      Delete
    76. " English discussion, are English dictionaries now out of bounds"

      Jason, what on Earth do Google, English and English dictionaries have with this discussion?

      Delete
    77. This issue should not be that complicate. As long as the people worshipping other gods incline their heart to that idol instead of G-d, then it's an idol of the heart.

      Our hearts must be in heaven with our beloved Lord Colossians 3:2

      Thus if you have Jesus in your heart first, it is definitely an idol of the heart, even if you don't see the idol (Jesus body in heaven).

      At least Jason, you must admit that if Jesus is not god, then he is another god and it is idolatry (in the heart) to worship him.

      Can we agree on that?

      Delete
    78. It's a greater manifestation of God's *Presence*.

      Thank you for responding, I will assume Gene also believes the same.

      Now do you believe that God can manifest Himself as a man?

      Delete
    79. God is not human.

      Jesus was a different entity. He spoke to G-d and prayed to G-d. Can he manifest Himself as a man is as ludicrous as can he manifest Himself as a golden calf.

      Do you agree with that Zion? if Jesus is not god, then he is another god and it is idolatry to worship him.

      Delete
    80. Gene wrote:
      "Jason, what on Earth do Google, English and English dictionaries have with this discussion?"

      A. Michael wrote:
      "And idol is anything you worship as God besides HaShem."

      "Worshiping Yeshu is idolatry."

      According to the dictionary, an idol is "an image or representation of a god".

      So, the sun is not an idol, but a carved image of the sun which is intended for worship (bowing) is an idol.

      Yeshua is not an idol. A carved image of him is.

      This is not that hard. See here:

      You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them.
      ‭‭Exodus‬ ‭20:4-5‬a ‭NKJV‬‬

      Delete
    81. Hi Jason, both idolatry and worship of false gods should be ridiculed and are in the Hebrew Bible. So you are playing with words, it does not matter if Jesus is a carved image or a false god. You are deviating from the topic.

      Delete
    82. Idols are seen.
      In Hebrew, worship means to bow.
      Bowing to kings as authority is okay.
      Bowing to idols is not -- cmd #2.
      Bowing to Ba'als is not -- cmd #1.
      The AW do not teach us to bow to Yeshua (yet).
      To call Yeshua a dead-man and a man-god is contradictory and unnecessary unless one of you has heard from HaShem that He did not send Yeshua.

      What verse in the AW bothers you so much?

      Delete
    83. Bowing to kings as authority is okay. I agree
      Bowing to idols is not -- cmd #2. I agree
      Bowing to Ba'als is not -- cmd #1. I agree
      Bowing to false gods. Not ok

      Bowing to Jesus... That's the problem isn't it!

      Ok, now we are back to the real problem.

      To call Yeshua a dead-man and a man-god is contradictory and unnecessary unless he is not the creator of the universe.

      I think it's clear from the New testament that Jesus claimed to be different from the Father and that Jesus claimed to be the father (Revelation 22).

      Maybe we can start with something we all agree.

      Was Jesus a prophet?

      Did he have prophecies that 1 (were fulfilled)
      2 (were not fulfilled)

      Honestly, anyone wants to start?

      Delete
    84. Jason, get reading: http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/912348/jewish/Avodat-Kochavim.htm

      Delete
    85. If a person decides that he likes a certain tree and think it is a god and has power over the universe, or can bring him luck, and the like - this is an idol. If the tree withers and dies or the man simply moves to a far away land away from the tree and his family continue to address their prayers to the tree and regard it as a god - it is a false god.

      Whenever someone sets up an idea, an image, or an object as an autonomous divine being, then that's idolatry. If you read the link above, nice and easy in English, it begins talking about the generation of Enosh and the error they made. The problem with idolatry isn't that the ancients were stupid and made up pantheons of gods and worshiped them. The problem is that they didn't realize HaShem is over all the angelic and demonic beings that they beheld and worshiped as autonomous divine beings. They forgot that HaShem is above all angels and demons and that these beings they worshiped, albeit harnessing great power, are all at the command of HaShem.

      When the secular world and atheism put science, nature, and the laws of nature (i.e. chance) as the sole deciders of what happens on earth - that is a kind of idolatry. Look at it this way, when faith that HaShem alone is God and is the only supreme being that decides the fates of ALL and created ALL and oversees ALL constantly, then you automatically descend into idolatry. The philosophers, scientists, etc, all set themselves up as gods or prophets of chance/nature. This is kefira which is a form of idolatry.

      As soon as someone says Yeshu is one and the same as God, then this is the denial of an essential precept in the Torah that God is infinite, not tangible, and certainly not a man. When they say that there are three different personas that are separate autonomous entities that make up one "Godhead" - that is straight out, 100% idolatry. When a person prays to Yeshu for his needs, worships him as 'God', etc, this is complete idolatry also.

      This is all very basic and obvious.

      Delete
    86. A. Michael wrote:
      "If a person decides that he likes a certain tree and think it is a god and has power over the universe, or can bring him luck, and the like - this is an idol."

      No, in that case it is not an image of a false god, it *is* a false god. The person commits apostasy (leaving G-d for god) not idolatry.

      A. Michael wrote:
      "If...his family continue to address their prayers to the tree and regard it as a god - it is a false god"

      Correct!

      A. Michael wrote:
      "The problem is that they didn't realize HaShem is over all the angelic and demonic beings that they beheld and worshiped as autonomous divine beings."

      Yes!

      A. Michael wrote:
      "When they say that there are three different personas that are separate autonomous entities that make up one "Godhead" - that is straight out, 100% idolatry. When a person prays to Yeshu for his needs, worships him as 'God', etc, this is complete idolatry also."

      Oh, bother. No, not idolatry. No graven images listed.

      Now rather than arguing against Catholic doctrine why not state what in the Apostolic Writings bothers you? Verse reference would be helpful.

      Delete
    87. In Torah, it doesn't matter if he worships the false god in his mind, or if he bows down to an image of the false god - it's all idolatry.

      You look at totally non Torah definitions for idolatry, not the Torah's definition. How are you going to persuade observant Jews that way?

      Delete
    88. A. Michael wrote:
      "it's all idolatry."

      Prohibited, yes. Apostasy, maybe. Idolatry, murder, adultery, theft, defamation... no.

      If you accuse me of making idols, I just assume you to be ignorant or mad. If you want to persuade me in a written English dialogue, you can't make up meanings as you go. If English is uncomfortable, I'd prefer you use the Hebrew word. At least then I can look up the definition.

      Do the AW conflict with Torah? Where is the best example? Please provide the verse reference.

      Delete
    89. I'm trying to move the discussion away from how someone might pervert the Apostolic Writings (apostasy, idolatry, blasphemy, etc.) and toward if/where you think the AW advance these practices.

      Delete
    90. Gene or Aaron, do you believe that God can manifest Himself as a man?

      Delete
    91. Who was it that insisted God is beyond explaination and understanding, but they are certain what he can and cannot do?

      Delete
    92. "Gene or Aaron, do you believe that God can manifest Himself as a man?"

      No, G-d cannot manifest Himself as any of the creatures which He created, because 1) a creature cannot contain G-d and 2) G-d already warned Israelites that He has no [reproducible] physical form (which can be made into an idol) and even mentioned form of a man or a woman specifically (Deuteronomy 4:16). For G-d to take on a physical form at a later time would not only cause people to question G-d's earlier warnings about not having a physical form, but would directly cause people to turn to idolatry (as indeed happened to the vast majority of Christians very soon after the founding of their religion (via Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy), when Jesus was made into icons and statues through which Christians worshiped him.

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    93. This comment has been removed by the author.

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    94. This comment has been removed by the author.

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    95. Gene wrote:
      "G-d already warned Israelites that He has no [reproducible] physical form (which can be made into an idol) and even mentioned form of a man or a woman specifically (Deuteronomy 4:16)"

      In light of the golden calf incident, Moses reminds the people not to make idols (and that they don't even know what G-d looks like):
      Take careful heed to yourselves, for you saw no form when the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, lest you act corruptly and make for yourselves a carved image...
      ‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭4:15-16a NKJV

      However to Moses, who did not participate in idolatry, G-d references His hand, back, and face and then appears in part:
      Then I will take away My hand, and you shall see My back; but My face shall not be seen.
      ‭‭Exodus‬ ‭33:23‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

      Now if and how Yeshua fits into this is a separate discussion, but I think you'll agree that G-d took a visible form... just not to those who had participated in idolatry.

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    96. And His feet, too.

      Exodus 24:9-11 (JPS) Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel; and they saw the G-d of Israel; and there was under His feet the like of a paved work of sapphire stone, and the like of the very heaven for clearness. And upon the nobles of the children of Israel He laid not His hand; and they beheld G-d, and did eat and drink.

      Delete
    97. Thanks marko.

      Jason wrote:
      "just not to those who had participated in idolatry"

      If Horeb and Sinai are the same place, then my statement was incorrect. Gold calf followed G-d's cloaked appearance at Sinai:

      Exodus 19: people see smoke at Sinai
      Exodus 24: elders see G-d's feet
      Exodus 24: people see fire at Sinai
      Exodus 32: gold calf
      Exodus 33: Moses sees G-d's back

      Delete
    98. "However to Moses, who did not participate in idolatry, G-d references His hand, back, and face and then appears in part: Then I will take away My hand, and you shall see My back; but My face shall not be seen."

      Jason, first of all, Moses asked G-d to show him His "glory", not G-d's body. Moses saw G-d's glory, the "back" parts of it (whatever that means). The Bible frequently uses figurative anthropomorphic imagery to describe something spiritual and otherworldly. Consider this example from the Torah: "And when the Israelites saw the mighty hand of the L-ed displayed against the Egyptians" (Exodus 14:31).

      Do you seriously think that Israelites (and the Egyptians, too, of course) "saw" a literal giant "hand" of G-d smiting the Egyptians? Think!!!!!!!

      "Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel; and they saw the G-d of Israel; and there was under His feet the like of a paved work of sapphire stone".

      Marco... G-d already warned Israelites that they saw no form on the mountain! That means that NONE of them did, not some did and some didn't. Leaders were included in that number, that is especially leaders of the people! They didn't see a form! What they saw was "smoke" and something that had appearance of fire (but obviously was not an actual fire). More importantly, the saw no form of any sort, nothing that could be turned into an idol. (When we say "foot of the mountain - do mountains have feet)? Very important to think about this clearly, discern figurative speech from literal, and take in the big picture of what G-d is like so as not to succumb to idolatry.

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    99. Jason, if you keep basing your idea of idolatry off of a modern secular English definition, which limits it to the worship of a physical object, then there's no getting through to you.

      You know what you have to hide is the fact that you worship and direct your prayers to another besides HaShem, and you're grabbing at anything you can to vindicate that idolatry - even by ignoring the Torah's own definition.

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    100. No, G-d cannot manifest Himself.

      Well there you go folks, according to Gene, God is not "All-Powerful".

      End of discussion.

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    101. "Well there you go folks, according to Gene, God is not "All-Powerful". "

      You got it wrong, Zion. G-d IS all-powerful, but He is not self-contradictory. The attempted gotcha questions you posed ("can G-d become a man?") are very similar to this well-worn "gem": "Can G-d make a rock so big that even He can't pick it up"?

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    102. G-d IS all-powerful, but He is not self-contradictory.

      Gene, the fact that you believe God cannot manifest Himself as a man or anything outside of the box you defined Him in, is self-contradictory, you say He is all-powerful, but He can't do certain things, your reasoning is that He listed why, but the verses you even used, speak nothing to this effect. Come on Gene, produce something of substance.

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    103. "Come on Gene, produce something of substance. "

      Again, Zion, your harping about a supposed flaw in G-d's omnipotence if He cannot become a man is the same as the question "Can G-d make a rock so big that even He can't pick it up?"

      So, I am going to ask you, Zion, the same old foolish question: if G-d is "all-powerful", can He make a rock so big that even He is not able to lift it?

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    104. God has angels. The word angel actually translates to messenger in Hebrew. In Torah law, when one sends the messenger, it is as the sender himself. God doesn't manifest into human form or any form, instead angels/messengers are entities created from HaShem's desire. They carry out the task they were created to carry out. Thus we see that everything that comes from the Infinite, HaShem, becomes increasingly tangible as they transverse down through the the spiritual worlds into this physical one. There are angels in the spiritual worlds that do things affecting this physical world but never manifest into this physical world.

      Is it HaShem doing these things, or the angels? Or the demons, for that matter, since they're also messengers of HaShem and under His control? It is HaShem, though He never leaves infinity and is constantly above and beyond space, time, and matter, while still filling the earth with His *glory*.

      God doesn't physically manifest. Physical manifestations of His glory (the Shekhina) or His will (angels/messengers) aren't Him literally. There is no HaShem literally that can be perceived by the human mind, because you'd blow up.

      Our souls are as breath of HaShem breathed into us. Especially Jews which have more divine aspects to their souls. Therefore, we could be called sons of God. But obviously that isn't literal.

      I'm getting sick of making plain-as-day arguments easily proofed in the Torah, and having people who are capable of understand this end playing dumb because they know their most important beliefs are heretical according to the Torah and can't suffer giving them up.

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    105. A. Michael wrote:
      "Especially Jews which have more divine aspects to their souls."

      Gene wrote:
      "discern figurative speech from literal,"

      Maybe Gene or Aaron could discern this for me:

      Then I will take away My hand, and you shall see My back; but My face shall not be seen.
      ‭‭Exodus‬ ‭33:23‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

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    106. "Then I will take away My hand, and you shall see My back; but My face shall not be seen.
      ‭‭Exodus‬ ‭33:23‬ ‭NKJV‬‬"

      Jason, what does the Torah say? "And he [Moses] said: "Show me, now, Your glory!" He [G-d' said: "I will let all My goodness pass before you;"

      So, from this we can learn that whatever it was the Moses experienced was nothing physical in nature, but a profoundly spiritual experience.

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    107. A. Michael wrote:
      "I'm getting sick of making plain-as-day arguments easily proofed in the Torah, and having people who are capable of understand this end playing dumb because they know their most important"

      Try having an English dialogue sometime with someone who invents meanings for English words :)

      A. Michael wrote:
      "[their] beliefs are heretical according to the Torah and can't suffer giving them up."

      Who cares what people believe? Were you going to point out something heretical in the Apostolic Writings?

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    108. Gene wrote:
      "So, from this we can learn that whatever it was the Moses experienced was nothing physical in nature, but a profoundly spiritual experience."

      Yeah, I get that G-d is spirit. What did Moses see?

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    109. Jason said: "Maybe Gene or Aaron could discern this for me:

      Then I will take away My hand, and you shall see My back; but My face shall not be seen.
      ‭‭Exodus‬ ‭33:23‬ ‭NKJV‬‬"

      I just learned a Torah from Likutei Moharan about this pasuk. The Zohar and Kitvei Ari have a lot to say about it, too. You wouldn't get it, since you want to play dumb about the issue that God is one and infinite, above time, space, and matter.

      "Try having an English dialogue sometime with someone who invents meanings for English words :)"

      Okay, so since you purposefully remain ignorant that we're talking about עבודה זרה when we say 'idolatry', I'll use עבודה זרה just for you, even though any idiot knows what we mean by "the Torah's definition of idolatry". Some more purposeful idiocy on your part.

      And who cares what people believe? I do. Because I care about the status of mankind and want righteousness to flourish.

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    110. Again, Zion, your harping about a supposed flaw in G-d's omnipotence if He cannot become a man is the same as the question "Can G-d make a rock so big that even He can't pick it up?"

      Gene, I have no issue with God's omnipotence, that is why I believe that God can manifest in the flesh. It is you who has that issue, its more a traditional issue than a scriptural issue, but you have that free will to believe as you like.

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    111. And who cares what people believe? I do. Because I care about the status of mankind and want righteousness to flourish.

      Then you should love Yeshua the Jew, the one who God sent, because the work he accomplished in the world, and bringing gentiles to the God of Israel, is more than any other Jew in history, greater than Moses. Am I right or Amirite?

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    112. Oh, riiiight. Bringing idolatry to gentiles and persecution and holocausts to exiled Jews. Really good messiah you got there.

      By the way, as per a previous discussion about atonement: Daniel 4:24 proves that charity atones for sin. It says it outright. I came across it studying Daniel just now.

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    113. A. Michael wrote:
      "'ll use עבודה זרה just for you, even though any idiot knows what we mean by "the Torah's definition of idolatry". Some more purposeful idiocy on your part."

      Are you serious? I'm actually trying to understand you, but while you redefine the English word idolatry and claim that Christianity is idolatry, you haven't mentioned where the Apostolic Writings violate Torah.

      If you'd like to define what you mean by "idolatry" as עבודה זרה and if you have a search tool that works with Hebrew characters, please provide a list of verse references where that phrase (עבודה זרה) is used so I can understand the meaning in context. Do the AW violate Torah? Where?

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    114. The English word idolatry is what Jews use in English for the phrase עבודה זרה, and it means worshiping foreign gods, image/statue or not.

      עבודה זרה means foreign service or foreign worship. It means worshiping anything as a god besides HaShem. You do it because you worship another entity besides HaShem. If you think there is a "godhead" of "god the father", "god the son", and "god the holy spirit", then you're POLYTHEISTIC, get it? It's idolatry, it's עבודה זרה.

      Don't play dumb anymore. This is like beating a dead horse. You're acting like you don't understand what I keep repeating to you in plain words because you know you don't worship HaShem alone.

      Even if you don't believe in the trinity, if you address your prayers to Yeshu, you're admitting he is a god. That is עבודה זרה. Get it? If you think God has a body, you're a כופר, which means a "denier" or "heretic". If you think Yeshu was god in flesh, that is exactly what you are, according to the Torah. The plain text of the written Torah tells us God is one, not two or three, and that He is not a man. The oral Torah which is entirely necessary to fully understand the written Torah gives exact details. All of you who reject the oral Torah are much like the Sadducees, and similar to the Karaites who gave over real Jews in Holocaust and were spared by the Nazis. Says a lot about them.

      Yeshu and Paul (supposedly) repeatedly said they do believe in the oral Torah and in the authority of the Sages - the authority to interpret Torah which was given in the plain text of the written Torah in Deut. 17 and more.

      Let's try John 1, just for starters. The 'word' which "was God" (1:1) "became flesh" (1:14). That means 'God became flesh'. Well, we've been over this a million times, haven't we? Come on man, you know better, stop playing games. Admit that what you believe is clearly contradictory to the Torah which states "God is one" and that He "is not a man nor a human being." You can't smooth over that with what John 1 alone says, and I'm sure I couldn't find many more instances in the "NT" damning it as idolatrous - or full of עבודה זרה, since you might not understand me yet... smh.

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    115. More: Paul says he is a "Pharisee" one of the groups of Jews (along with the Essenes and the common folk of the Jewish people) who believed in the oral Torah. Yeshu says the Sages sit in Moses' seat and to do what they say, i.e., he is just quoting Deut. 17 which states such.

      Yeshu constantly argued with the Sadducees, who were elite upper class Roman puppets who rejected the oral Torah.

      We know Yeshu didn't entirely accept the oral Torah, rather, he started out as a student of a Sage, and then he went off the path because he was unruly to begin with, wouldn't take reproof from his teacher R' Yehoshua ben Perahya, and he also became bitter because his father was a Roman soldier. He actually killed his biological father, and the man his mother originally married offered himself up to the Romans, claiming he had killed him, since Yeshu wouldn't come forward. Really, Yeshu's mother's actual husband saved the Jewish people from the wrath of the Romans. Yeshu was a coward.

      He began saying that his father was divine and not the Roman soldier that his father really was. His students followed his twisted path incorporating bits of typical sermons the Sages would give but used Divine Names without any permission to perform miracles.

      The Sages sent some to use Names also, to show him up. And they did. The Romans didn't recognize Yeshu's religion and followers as a truly ancient and ancestral religion, which is how they viewed Judaism. Later on as the 'Christians' or 'Notzrim' entirely separated from anything Jews (thanks to one of our agents whose erroneous books were purposely written for this purpose - there are many of his books that are in the Christian Bible today), then the Romans realized that this new religion could be a very useful tool to mixing all conquered peoples and their religions, which is what the Romans did, into a universal religion. This became known as Catholicism, which means 'Universalism'. They successfully added much paganism with Jewish ideas, that they thought they could totally incorporate Judaism into the universal Roman religion. That's because they didn't understand that Judaism doesn't tolerate idolatry (עבודה זרה) and there is no leeway to be given to mixing religions. The Romans didn't understand that fully, or at least they thought they could sway some of the general populace of Jews. They were wrong.

      I'm trying to educate you on the facts, because your 'gospels' are full of contradictions and lies. We have the real story, as usual.

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    116. Oh, riiiight. Bringing idolatry to gentiles and persecution and holocausts to exiled Jews. Really good messiah you got there.

      Gentiles did not need to be brought idolatry, a simple study of history would have told you that. Until the spread of Messianic Judaism, gentiles only knew idolatry, only until Yeshua, they came to know the God of Israel. Certainly Christianity after being dominated by Gentiles and antisemitism produced some very bad fruit, not just to Jews, millions of Christians were slaughtered by Christians as well. But there is also a good side that came out of it, if you only look at one side, you are skewing reality, majority of the world has been impacted by Judaeo-Christian morals, and that was a result of Christian faith, not only that, today, no one even comes close to Christian humanitarian aid and services in the world.

      By the way, as per a previous discussion about atonement: Daniel 4:24 proves that charity atones for sin. It says it outright. I came across it studying Daniel just now.

      Nope, the word for atonement is found no where in that verse, in other verse in Daniel the word atonement is used, but not in this verse.

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    117. "Until the spread of Messianic Judaism, gentiles only knew idolatry, only until Yeshua, they came to know the God of Israel."

      You meant Christianity, Messianic Judaism is a new movement that came out of the Baptist Church less than 100 years ago.

      "has been impacted by Judaeo-Christian morals".
      There is moral individual in each and every religion... I am not denying that there are good "christians".

      "Christian humanitarian aid and services in the world."
      Do you include the catholics and all the other sects you don't actually consider "true" Christians? Christiany being the biggest religion, it would not be surprising.

      Daniel 4:24? This must be the wrong quote.
      this is the interpretation, O king, and this is the decree of the Most High, which has come upon my lord the king:

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    118. You meant Christianity, Messianic Judaism is a new movement that came out of the Baptist Church less than 100 years ago.

      No, I am referring to the religion of the Apostles, they were a sect of Judaism, today far separated and known largely as Christianity.

      There is moral individual in each and every religion... I am not denying that there are good "christians".

      I am talking about historical fact, not opinion. Even some of the most well known atheist today, attribute most of the major moral changes in the world to Christianity, that being Judaeo-Christian morals.

      Do you include the catholics and all the other sects you don't actually consider "true" Christians? Christiany being the biggest religion, it would not be surprising.

      Exactly, all who would fit under the term Christianity. All sects.

      Daniel 4:24? This must be the wrong quote.
      this is the interpretation, O king, and this is the decree of the Most High, which has come upon my lord the king:


      No, he gave the correct verse, you are not looking in a Jewish Bible.

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    119. "No, I am referring to the religion of the Apostles"
      You realize that nobody knows what the apostles believed and everybody think they are following in the steps of the apostles? I would agree with you that the apostles where more Jewish than most christians church, but the messianic movement is mostly evangelical christianity with kippot.

      Judaeo-Christian morals.
      Christian morals come from Judaism and I don't disagree with you that many honest Christians have good morals.

      "All sects." Catholics have done more violence than good thought. Yes, now they giving to charity and you include them as "christians", but you pick and chose when they should be part of the group when the numbers are at your advantage.

      you are not looking in a Jewish Bible.
      Thanks


      Delete
  4. Time to get ready for Shabbat, Shabbat Shalom!

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  5. Zion SAID "t makes me laugh when I hear the usual argument, which is: "Christian and Messianic beliefs are contrary or foreign to Judaism, and are pagan in nature""

    Have you ever read the First apology of Justin Martyr Zion?

    And when we say also that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter. For you know how many sons your esteemed writers ascribed to Jupiter: Mercury, the interpreting word and teacher of all; Æsculapius, who, though he was a great physician, was struck by a thunderbolt, and so ascended to heaven; and Bacchus too, after he had been torn limb from limb; and Hercules, when he had committed himself to the flames to escape his toils; and the sons of Leda, and Dioscuri; and Perseus, son of Danae; and Bellerophon, who, though sprung from mortals, rose to heaven on the horse Pegasus. For what shall I say of Ariadne, and those who, like her, have been declared to be set among the stars? And what of the emperors who die among yourselves, whom you deem worthy of deification, and in whose behalf you produce some one who swears he has seen the burning Cæsar rise to heaven from the funeral pyre? And what kind of deeds are recorded of each of these reputed sons of Jupiter, it is needless to tell to those who already know. This only shall be said, that they are written for the advantage and encouragement of youthful scholars; for all reckon it an honourable thing to imitate the gods. But far be such a thought concerning the gods from every well-conditioned soul, as to believe that Jupiter himself, the governor and creator of all things, was both a parricide and the son of a parricide, and that being overcome by the love of base and shameful pleasures, he came in to Ganymede and those many women whom he had violated and that his sons did like actions. But, as we said above, wicked devils perpetrated these things. And we have learned that those only are deified who have lived near to God in holiness and virtue; and we believe that those who live wickedly and do not repent are punished in everlasting fire.

    https://www.google.ca/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=justin+martyr+first+apology

    Even your church fathers agree that CHRIST is not so different than the Heathen...

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  6. "Æsculapius ascended to heaven"

    "burning Cæsar rise to heaven from the funeral pyre"

    Stop it Justin! There is nothing pagan about Jesus birth and resurrection... Ignorance is a bliss Justin!

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  7. "please do explain the above parable."

    Well, I don't want to be bias,... so let us look at Bible Hub:

    But those mine enemies,.... Meaning particularly the Jews, who were enemies to the person of Christ, and hated and rejected him, as the King Messiah; and rebelled against him, and would not submit to his government; and were enemies to his people, and were exceeding mad against them, and persecuted them; and to his Gospel, and the distinguishing truths of it, and to his ordinances, which they rejected against themselves:


    http://biblehub.com/luke/19-27.htm

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  8. Sorry I forgot...

    Ignorance is a bliss Gill!

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  9. Zion said: "Gentiles did not need to be brought idolatry, a simple study of history would have told you that."

    Straw man argument. I never said gentiles didn't need to be brought to idolatry. I said Yeshu continued idolatry by being worshiped by a large portion of the world.

    Judaeo-Christian values and Christian charity don't have anything to do with the fact that believers in Yeshu are idolaters.

    Daniel 4:24 says "do charity to throw off/break off your sin" the Aramaic root word פרק is as in Hebrew, it means to take off a loadת or unload, or discharge, become free of.

    That doesn't mean atonement? Atonement is different than becoming free and absolved of your sins? What is atonement to you, then? What is the difference between forgiveness and atonement, like I explained in my video about it?

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