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Saturday, August 18, 2012

Responding to Anonymous' Questions About Conversion


A recent Anonymous asked a TON of really good questions.  Don't know if I'll get through them all but here goes:

QUESTION 1:  "When a gentile comes to faith in Jesus, is he or she obligated to keep the whole law of Moses?"

First, let's understand the background.  A Jew is obligated to Torat Moshe because of his ancestors at Sinai who said "na'aseh v'nishma".  Yeshua was obligated to Torah because of His ancestors.  Gentiles are obligated to Torah because Yeshua becomes their ancestor (Heavenly Father).

But let's look at Exodus 24:7 to see how the Israelites became obligated to Torah.  "..kola asher diber adonai na'aseh v'nishma."  Notice the order in which they respond, "all that G-d has spoken, we will do and we will understand."  They didn't understand right away.

G-d doesn't expect these incoming gentiles to know all of the Torah right away but He does expect them to accept that His instructions are binding and He wants them to make a commitment to studying in order that they understand.  A new citizen must pledge to abide by the law, to do it, even if he doesn't know or understand all of the law.

Now let's see if the premise that a convert is still a convert even if no one explained the Torah to him, if this premise is confirmed by the Rabbis:

Maimonides in Hilchot Issurei Biah, Halachah 13:17 says "When a court did not check a [potential] converts background and did not inform him of the mitzvot and the punishment for [the failure to observe] the mitzvot and he circumcised himself and immersed in the presence of three ordinary people, he is [still] a convert."

So we see that Rambam essentially agrees with me.  It's possible to convert through normative processes (e.g immersion, or as Rambam would say, circumcision + immersion) EVEN IF one does not know or understand all the mitzvot at the outset.

QUESTION 2:

"If a gentile has the status of a convert as a believer in Jesus, will his or her next generation be considered Jewish?"

No.  "Jewish" refers to the tribal identity of Judah and also to proselytes to that tribe.  A gentile who converts through Yeshua has not gone through the normative procedures for joining Judah.  He is, however, an Israelite because his Father is Yeshua.

QUESTION 3:

"When is this moment that a gentile is obligated to the law of Moses?"

When one accepts to follow Yeshua and all of His teachings.

QUESTION 4:

"At what point could Paul start bringing his gentile believers past the court of the gentiles?"

I wasn't aware that he did.  I'm aware that he was accused of this but I'm not aware that it did in fact happen.  Perhaps you could elaborate?

QUESTION 5:

"Would this new gentile believer receive the death penalty for breaking the Sabbath or would they say you are a gentile, you have not gone through the proper conversion process, why is your case even being heard?"

To answer this question, one would have to be familiar with first century Sanhedrin case law pertaining to Sabbath-breaking and one would need more facts about the gentile in question.

4 comments:

  1. The argument always boils down to what is proper conversion.

    DI and BE believe in ritual as the method of conversion and covenant status. Something which Paul spoke against heavily.

    One Law, believes in faith as the method of conversion and covenant status, and that circumcision is a command that should be kept as all other commands should be kept.

    Either way, gentiles were converting... how this exactly happens is the ultimate debate.

    DI and BE, believe that a converted gentile, which means a gentile who has gone through the full ritual, which includes the years of participation, circumcision, etc. has full covenant status, and that they are to keep the Torah just like a Jew would keep the Torah.

    One Law, believes that a converted gentile, which means a gentile who has put his faith in God/Messiah, and has taken upon himself to follow God and do what He has commanded, has full covenant status, and that they are to keep the Torah just like a Jew would keep the Torah.

    So as you can see, they believe proselytes are full members, and so do we, we just disagree on what a proselyte is. On the other hand, they believe that gentiles who have not gone through their method of conversion, are not true covenant members (ie Christians), they are simply not full members but simply a side member, contradicting Ephesians 2, and they must stay divided from the true members, so as not to cause some form of confusion among half and full members of God's covenants.

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    Replies
    1. Zion,

      A skillful delineation of the positions. As thousands of people (many thousands) read this blog each month, I hope that they will benefit from your clear and concise explanation of the different positions.

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    2. Thanks Peter, I hope it does help others see the root issue here.

      I also wanted to make note, that they usually make claims of "One Law proponents destroying Israels unique calling." When in reality, they would have to claim that "Proselytes" also destroy Israel's unique calling, and people like Derek would have to hypocritically shoot himself in the foot. For their stance to have any validity, they would need to invalidate Derek, or he would need to invalidate himself.

      Another one, many will claim that gentiles do not meet the requirement of the sojourner because they do not live in Israel, funny because this will come from people who also do not live in Israel...

      All you have to do is follow the smell of hypocrisy.

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  2. Peter you answered well, and I thought I would add some generalization.

    If one is in covenant, then they are held to the rules of covenant, this is common sense. A gentile, who is not in covenant, cannot be held to rules of a covenant they are not part of.

    Per question 5, obviously if a gentile is responsible to keep the Laws, then a gentile is responsible for breaking the Laws, thus the penalties, now that is generalized, as Peter said, people did not go around stoning each other on Sabbath, or there would be no more Israel today, lol, there are specific requirements that must be met for that to even happen.

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